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	<title>Comments on: Step 4: Respect</title>
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	<description>Data is ones and zeroes &#124; Software is ones and zeroes and hard work.</description>
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		<title>By: Greg Wilson</title>
		<link>http://third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-656</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 13:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pyre.third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-656</guid>
		<description>I disagree strongly with Paul&#039;s imputation that I am suggesting a double standard, or that I am suggesting that women are &quot;weak and fragile and frail&quot;.  The joys of an open blog, I suppose...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree strongly with Paul&#8217;s imputation that I am suggesting a double standard, or that I am suggesting that women are &#8220;weak and fragile and frail&#8221;.  The joys of an open blog, I suppose&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-655</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 21:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pyre.third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-655</guid>
		<description>There is, as I&#039;m sure you&#039;re aware, a great deal of data on how women&#039;s social modes differ from men&#039;s. You are proposing that men&#039;s more aggressive social modes are inherently invalid, and that men should adopt feminine, nonconfrontation social modes so as to make women feel comfortable. In fact, there is no data to draw a moral conclusion one way or the other as to whether men&#039;s social modes or women&#039;s are &quot;better&quot; than the other; they just are the way they are, and trying to force people to act differently than their nature is an exercise in futility.

There is no comparison to be drawn between a physical assault and robbery and allocation of work between male and female participants at a project planning meeting. That is absurd and inherently disrespectful both to women and to victims of physical assault.

You&#039;re advocating a double standard for women. You&#039;re demeaning their entire gender, saying that women (in general) are just too inherently weak and fragile and frail socially to stand up for themselves in group situations with men, and thus need extra social rules to protect and work around their weak mode of interaction. Your proposed solution, that we men should don kid gloves and be nice and kind and gentle, is even more demeaning to women (and to men). There&#039;s nothing about the female gender that makes a women inherently unable to step up and assert herself - indeed, many, many women do exactly that.

The real solution is not to institute a double standard, but that little girls should not be raised to have passive personalities and to be submissive to perceived group desires; and that women who were born into such situations and raised to have such personalities need to learn to stand up for themselves (as many women (and men) before them have done).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is, as I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re aware, a great deal of data on how women&#8217;s social modes differ from men&#8217;s. You are proposing that men&#8217;s more aggressive social modes are inherently invalid, and that men should adopt feminine, nonconfrontation social modes so as to make women feel comfortable. In fact, there is no data to draw a moral conclusion one way or the other as to whether men&#8217;s social modes or women&#8217;s are &#8220;better&#8221; than the other; they just are the way they are, and trying to force people to act differently than their nature is an exercise in futility.</p>
<p>There is no comparison to be drawn between a physical assault and robbery and allocation of work between male and female participants at a project planning meeting. That is absurd and inherently disrespectful both to women and to victims of physical assault.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re advocating a double standard for women. You&#8217;re demeaning their entire gender, saying that women (in general) are just too inherently weak and fragile and frail socially to stand up for themselves in group situations with men, and thus need extra social rules to protect and work around their weak mode of interaction. Your proposed solution, that we men should don kid gloves and be nice and kind and gentle, is even more demeaning to women (and to men). There&#8217;s nothing about the female gender that makes a women inherently unable to step up and assert herself &#8211; indeed, many, many women do exactly that.</p>
<p>The real solution is not to institute a double standard, but that little girls should not be raised to have passive personalities and to be submissive to perceived group desires; and that women who were born into such situations and raised to have such personalities need to learn to stand up for themselves (as many women (and men) before them have done).</p>
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		<title>By: The Third Bit &#187; Blog Archive &#187; An Unrepresentative DemoCamp</title>
		<link>http://third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-654</link>
		<dc:creator>The Third Bit &#187; Blog Archive &#187; An Unrepresentative DemoCamp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pyre.third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-654</guid>
		<description>[...] If that was as far as the letdown went, I&#8217;d be OK: I used to play a little jazz, and I know that open mike nights are always a mixed bag.  But as David Crow has very courageously said in his latest post, that isn&#8217;t all that went wrong.  ConceptShare is intended to help people collaborate on graphic design over the web; it lets you post images (such as advertising copy or screenshots of a new GUI), then annotate them and draw on them asynchronously, with all the logging and blogging you&#8217;d expect.  During their demo, its creators used an image of a busty young woman in a low-cut dress taken from (I believe) a perfume ad.  One of the guys standing behind my table made a couple of locker room comments about her breasts while the image was on screen, and another couple of guys near him laughed.  They probably didn&#8217;t notice the looks on the faces of the women at my table, but I did.  As the one who had invited those three women to attend, I felt embarrassed, and ashamed, and more than a little bit angry. And then the Pursudo guys started their presentation with, &#8220;The purpose of our software is get someone in this room laid,&#8221; or something very similar.  I looked around at all the white male faces (at least 90% white, in a tech gathering, in Toronto&#8212;when&#8217;s the last time you saw that?): some were grinning, and the rest were carefully neutral, because let&#8217;s face it: nobody wants to be the prissy politically correct spoilsport who says, &#8220;You&#8217;re making people feel uncomfortable.&#8221; Two of the students who came with me have since said that they won&#8217;t return.  I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s because the demos were a letdown; I think it was the boy&#8217;s club atmosphere.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, I think that fixing this ought to be the goal of future Web 2.0 gatherings (and others).  We&#8217;ll all be better for it. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] If that was as far as the letdown went, I&#8217;d be OK: I used to play a little jazz, and I know that open mike nights are always a mixed bag.  But as David Crow has very courageously said in his latest post, that isn&#8217;t all that went wrong.  ConceptShare is intended to help people collaborate on graphic design over the web; it lets you post images (such as advertising copy or screenshots of a new GUI), then annotate them and draw on them asynchronously, with all the logging and blogging you&#8217;d expect.  During their demo, its creators used an image of a busty young woman in a low-cut dress taken from (I believe) a perfume ad.  One of the guys standing behind my table made a couple of locker room comments about her breasts while the image was on screen, and another couple of guys near him laughed.  They probably didn&#8217;t notice the looks on the faces of the women at my table, but I did.  As the one who had invited those three women to attend, I felt embarrassed, and ashamed, and more than a little bit angry. And then the Pursudo guys started their presentation with, &#8220;The purpose of our software is get someone in this room laid,&#8221; or something very similar.  I looked around at all the white male faces (at least 90% white, in a tech gathering, in Toronto&#8212;when&#8217;s the last time you saw that?): some were grinning, and the rest were carefully neutral, because let&#8217;s face it: nobody wants to be the prissy politically correct spoilsport who says, &#8220;You&#8217;re making people feel uncomfortable.&#8221; Two of the students who came with me have since said that they won&#8217;t return.  I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s because the demos were a letdown; I think it was the boy&#8217;s club atmosphere.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, I think that fixing this ought to be the goal of future Web 2.0 gatherings (and others).  We&#8217;ll all be better for it. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Shahan</title>
		<link>http://third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-653</link>
		<dc:creator>Shahan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 04:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pyre.third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-653</guid>
		<description>Wanted to provide a link that will discuss this issue as part of CASCON in Oct:
Women in Technology: New Strategies to Attract a New Generation of Girls
https://www-927.ibm.com/ibm/cas/cascon/workshops/thu.shtml

Attending CASCON is free and there are a number of very interesting topics being presented.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wanted to provide a link that will discuss this issue as part of CASCON in Oct:<br />
Women in Technology: New Strategies to Attract a New Generation of Girls<br />
<a href="https://www-927.ibm.com/ibm/cas/cascon/workshops/thu.shtml" rel="nofollow">https://www-927.ibm.com/ibm/cas/cascon/workshops/thu.shtml</a></p>
<p>Attending CASCON is free and there are a number of very interesting topics being presented.</p>
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		<title>By: Jorge</title>
		<link>http://third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-652</link>
		<dc:creator>Jorge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 20:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pyre.third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-652</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the very thoughtful post, Greg.

I&#039;d like to add that even subtle challenges to other people&#039;s disrespectful comments goes a long way. It&#039;s not easy, and it takes practice; many times I can&#039;t find the courage or the wit to retort to offhanded discriminatory comments, but when I manage to, the challenge defuses the insults pretty effectively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the very thoughtful post, Greg.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to add that even subtle challenges to other people&#8217;s disrespectful comments goes a long way. It&#8217;s not easy, and it takes practice; many times I can&#8217;t find the courage or the wit to retort to offhanded discriminatory comments, but when I manage to, the challenge defuses the insults pretty effectively.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Zaccak</title>
		<link>http://third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-651</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Zaccak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 07:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pyre.third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-651</guid>
		<description>I remember that CSC207 class well.  I wasn&#039;t enrolled in the class at that time so I didn&#039;t get to write a bio but I&#039;m sure I wouldn&#039;t have written &quot;beautiful&quot; or &quot;talented&quot;... I think I would have said &quot;fun&quot; wife.  The resaon being, is I beleive I might be pre-disposed to obesity (yes I&#039;m slim now but if you gain 5lbs / year for 50 years...).  So a fun / sports active wife will help to ensure I stay active as well.

Now back to your post, did you ever try to contact the woman again and let her know how you felt in regards to what you did?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember that CSC207 class well.  I wasn&#8217;t enrolled in the class at that time so I didn&#8217;t get to write a bio but I&#8217;m sure I wouldn&#8217;t have written &#8220;beautiful&#8221; or &#8220;talented&#8221;&#8230; I think I would have said &#8220;fun&#8221; wife.  The resaon being, is I beleive I might be pre-disposed to obesity (yes I&#8217;m slim now but if you gain 5lbs / year for 50 years&#8230;).  So a fun / sports active wife will help to ensure I stay active as well.</p>
<p>Now back to your post, did you ever try to contact the woman again and let her know how you felt in regards to what you did?</p>
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		<title>By: Olivier</title>
		<link>http://third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-650</link>
		<dc:creator>Olivier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 05:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pyre.third-bit.com/blog/archives/644.html#comment-650</guid>
		<description>Good Post Greg =D

I do now understand what you said once in our weekly meetings, that having girls in a team makes for a much more productive one. My team was all girls with the exception of myself!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good Post Greg =D</p>
<p>I do now understand what you said once in our weekly meetings, that having girls in a team makes for a much more productive one. My team was all girls with the exception of myself!</p>
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